How Do You Define Fantasy?

[lea_hazel]

I was thinking... How do you define fantasy? What do you think makes a novel a fantasy book, rather than science fiction, or some other genre? Aside from obvious tropes and markers (dragons + monarchy + quest to save the world), I mean. Is it the presence of magic? Is it a setting that has the semblance of human past, however flimsy? Any setting that's not contemporary or historical, and lacks obvious science fiction markers, like advanced technology, space-faring or other forms of futurism?

I'm asking because I'm curious, but also because I'm working (on and off) on a story that I'm not sure if I could define as fantasy or not. It has no magic, the mythology is no more real or cohesive than human mythologies, all the characters are human. Yet it takes place in a world that is more or less obviously not Earth, and makes no mention of Earth or of human civilization as we know it. Ostensibly, it and our world are mutually exclusive. It's also lacking in any of the traditional fantasy plots; more of a family drama than anything else.

Comments

[libelula]

I don't see why the kind of story you're describing can't be labeled fantasy. I mean, within fantasy there are sub-genres anyway. The kind of thing you mentioned -- magic, taking over the world, dragons, etc -- sounds like high fantasy to me. But that doesn't mean that it's the only type. There are plenty of fantasy stories without magic or dragons or elves, and there are plenty that focus on smaller, more centralized plots (such as a family drama). In fact, I prefer those kinds of fantasy stories to the wide sweeping ones.

For me the difference between fantasy and science fiction is that SF is based on some kind of science, be it astronomy, chemistry, engineering, genetics, psychology...whatever. Granted, a lot of it is based on science that really borders on fantasy sometimes - I've fallen into that trap myself more than once - but that's supposedly the major difference.

Honestly, I think fantasy can be anything else. Anything with elements out of the ordinary or outside our experience. It can be set in the contemporary world, or it can be set in some world made up just for that story. I know people talk a lot about tropes and "rules" when it comes to fantasy, but I don't buy into that. Fantasy can be anything you want it to be, which is why it's called fantasy to begin with, I should expect.

[lea_hazel]

I just worry that labeling my story as fantasy, even though that's what I've called it from the start, would create undue expectations. I feel like people would start reading it expecting that mythology will be treated as fact, the way fantasy usually does, when the story itself is perfectly agnostic. Or that they'll feel cheated because the war or revolution or whatnot that they think is being set up never happens.

I like the story itself a lot, even though it suffers from thesaurus-itis, but I think I might have accidentally created a false set-up for a story that's not the one I meant to tell.

[puritybrown]

It sounds quite similar to K.J. Parker's novels to me -- I love Parker's work, and they are typically shelved under "fantasy", but they have no magic to speak of, mythology is even less important than in the real world, and in general they are down-to-earth and not structured like conventional fantasy novels. Parker's more about politics and manipulation and grand schemes than family drama, but otherwise your story sounds similar.

To me, the crucial thing that distinguishes fantasy from other forms of fiction is that it's about things that can't happen in the world as we know it. To put it in a scheme:

Mundane contemporary fiction: things that could be happening now
Mundane historical fiction: things that could have happened back then
Science fiction: things that haven't happened yet, but maybe (as far as the author's awareness of science goes) could happen in the future
Fantasy: things that couldn't happen in the world that we know at any period of time

[lea_hazel]

I will have to look up K.J. Parker, because she (he?) sounds pretty interesting!

Fantasy is my out for designing a society using any elements that I see fit. world-building is one of my favorite aspects of writing, so that way I can mix and match, and don't have to spend the next six months researching some semi-esoteric historical setting where queerness is not big deal so I can explore how people's personal orientation tints their prejudices. Or something.

[adair]

Any time 3 sf-f readers get together an argument about what is fantasy can break out. There are scads of written discussions on the topic; it's hard to find complete agreement. Your story sounds like it fits right into the fantasy realm. The split between science fiction and fantasy is less clear than it was 30 years ago; by some of the early measures steampunk would be fantasy, which would cause much anger to many sf readers.

[lea_hazel]

It's also complicated by the fact that a lot of SF fans think fantasy is silly. You could say, for example, that Star Wars has a very epic fantasy setup, but because it has spaceships and lasers, most people think of it as sci-fi. Then again, I suppose literary circles run off of people having someone to look down on.

[cesy]

I'd call it fantasy if it's obviously not Earth alternate history or historical. Magic is not required for fantasy, though it is common.

[ivoryandhorn]

My own crackpot theory is that sci-fi is concerned with technology, and its effects on society, whereas fantasy is more concerned with people and how people interact with each other or within their society and culture (there's obviously some overlap between them, but I've always found distinctions between sci-fi and fantasy to be blurry.). So for me, using that definition, I'd say your story falls under fantasy.

Someone upthread (puritybrown) also mentioned that fantasy is a setting that couldn't have happened at any point in time during any historical period we know, and I'd say that's a pretty good rule of thumb as well.

[ex_pippin880]

That's pretty much the distinction we discussed in the spec fic unit (History in Fantasy/Fantasy in History) I did last year.

Classic science fiction ain't got much patience for characterisation. ;)

[ex_pippin880]

If in doubt, "speculative fiction"!

Sounds like you might be writing mannerpunk?

[lea_hazel]

I really like the label "speculative fiction" actually. To me, it goes to the root of any setting that isn't realistic, and erases the expectation that SF is about predicting how things will "really" be in the future.

Fantasy of manners sounds almost alarmingly accurate, actually. I guess I'm not as original/weird as I thought. I've still really enjoyed this discussion, though, so all is well.

[ilthit]

Magic is pretty much it, for me, although imaginary races will do it too. There's a Finnish novel translated as Not Before Sundown and Troll: A Love Story that had no fantasy element aside from including trolls in the world - classes as animals - which I instantly recognized as fantasy, but that might have something to do with the fact that trolls are still a fantasy trope. (Great book to read if you're Finnish, btw; not sure how well it translates.)

There are novels that have a certain artsy feel to them that I get the feeling wouldn't want to be classed as fantasy but still have a fantasy element in it. I usually class them as fantasy only after I've had a think about it. A certain style doesn't really give the author allowance to say, "it's not just a fantasy novel" as if there was something wrong with being a fantasy novel.

Not really sure how to class Alternate Universe novels... There I do think it depends on the style. If they use magic to open portals between worlds (His Dark Materials) I call it fantasy; if they use any pretension of science to do so (Star Trek) I call it scifi. If they don't travel through the worlds but it's set in a slightly different world without magic, then I'm just confused.